Celebrating NAIDOC Week 2024: Exploring Inclusion in Disability Sport

[Opening Scene] The video begins with the Sport4All logo on a dark background. Below the logo, the text “NAIDOC Week 2024: Keep the Fire Burning! 7-14 July” appears. To the right, a portion of Sport4All’s First Nations artwork is visible. Uplifting instrumental music plays softly.

[Scene Setting] Four people are seated in a semi-circle in a brightly lit room.

From left to right:

• Johnny Boland, Inclusion Coach at Sport4All, a Caucasian male with dark hair, wearing a Sport4All t-shirt.
• Benjamin Nabea Davis (Saibai/Waiben Islander), Indigenous Talent Program Manager at AFL and the podcast host, wearing a grey shirt with dark hair.
• Ethan Penrith (Yorta-Yorta/Yamatji), Statewide TIS Operations Coordinator at VAHS, wearing a black t-shirt, with dark hair.
• Mitch Gourley, National Manager at Sport4All, a Caucasian male with dark hair, wearing a Sport4All t-shirt.

Light background music plays as Benjamin introduces the podcast and welcomes each guest.

[Discussion Starts]

The video begins with an Acknowledgement of Country, featuring Aboriginal artwork in the background.

The text reads “Sport4All would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we all live, work, and travel upon. We pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge and respect the connection that First Nations peoples have to the sea, the sky, and the land. We acknowledge any and all First Nations peoples involved in making the following videos as well as those who are viewing it.” 

00:01 – 00:22

[The video starts with a close-up of Benjamin Nabea Davis as he looks directly at the camera and speaks]

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Welcome today guys. We are here, with Sport4All and, today we’re gonna be talking about understanding barriers and, you know, to speak from that community perspective about, you know, how Sport4All are collaborating with Indigenous First Nations people and, and the work that they’re amazing work that they’re doing and sort of lived experience from everyone here today. Mitch, do you wanna start off by introducing yourself?

00:23 – 01:19 

[The camera zooms out for a bit showing all 4 people and then Zooms towards Mitch sitting next to Ethan].

Mitch Gourley: Yeah, absolutely. It’s really good to be here. So my name’s Mitch Gourley. I’m the national manager of the Sport4All program. you know, I was really fortunate that sport’s been a huge part of my life from when I was sort of growing up and playing community sport and being involved in, in sport at school all the way through to, you know, I was lucky to, to go to four Winter Paralympics. You know, be a flag bearer at the, the Paralympic games and, and you know, win a few ski races along the way. But I guess, the most important thing to take away for me, you know, upon reflecting on, on sport and my journey was I, I was super lucky to be included in sport when I was young ’cause it wasn’t always the norm. So yeah, that, that’s kind of what brings me here today and why I’m excited to kind of be involved and hopefully, um, you know, create more choice for people with disability and people with disability from First Nations backgrounds, to, to be involved in sport when, where and, and how they choose.

01:20 – 01:31

[The camera zooms out for a bit showing all 4 people].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Yeah, it’s amazing and it’s also very impressive when you go to your Wikipedia page and you click on achievements and you have to click ‘see more’ to actually get the list lengthened. So that’s a nice little power move. Eth (Ethan) do you wanna introduce yourself?

01:32 – 02:05

[The camera zooms into Ethan. He is looking towards Benjamin and speaking].

Ethan Penrith: So I’m Eth (Ethan). I’m a proud Yorta-Yorta Yamatji man. I was born and raised in Melbourne my whole life. and for work I work, at the Victoria Aboriginal Health Service. work in the tackling indigenous smoking and vaping space. Obviously a beast in its own nowadays, but, yeah, I’ve played, you know, sports my whole life, footy basketball, little athletics, whatever mum sort of wanted me to get outta the house and there you go. Go do this. So, but yeah, just having to ya yarn today about, the inclusiveness of both First Nation and disabled people.

02:06 – 02:18

[The camera zooms out for a bit showing all 4 people].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Nice. Mum didn’t like having you around breaking any.

Ethan Penrith: Nah, it was always, it was always get that ball outside before I put a hole. Always. Yeah.

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Johnny, do you want to introduce yourself as well?

02:19 – 03:08

[The camera angle changes and is now zoomed into Johnny sitting next to Benjamin].

Johnny Boland: Sure. My name’s Johnny Boland. I’m an inclusion coach at Sport All, so I work with Mitch. What I do there is I sort of engage with the local community within the city of Melbourne to deliver an education program, designed to help sporting clubs and schools, increase their capability to facilitate having people with disabilities either at their school or at their club. The way I sort of got to that is I am legally blind, so I’ve grown up with about sort of a degenerative condition that gets a little bit worse over time. I was born with about 20% vision, but where it’s at now, essentially what someone with perfect vision can see 60 meters away I can see at about two meters away. So yeah, growing up playing sport and then losing my vision over that time helped me grow a massive passion for the space and the, the inclusion space that we work in now. And yeah, super proud to be here.

03:10 – 04:20

[The camera zooms out for a bit showing all 4 people].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Nice. Awesome. Thanks Johnny. I will introduce myself as well. My name is Benjamin Nabea Davis. I’m a proud Saibai Waiben Islander man from the Torres Strait. My journey growing up playing footy same as you, just playing every sport. Mom just wanted me outta the house but grew up with the goal to play footy and that was sort of something that I stuck myself to and was lucky enough to get drafted, um, to Adelaide in 2017 and, was there till 2022. Played a massive 11 games, eight of them as sub. So, very impressive. I know, gave myself the nickname Subway. But, yeah, I, I’ve sort of come up through Indigenous pathways and, am now in a position that the AFL get to help indigenous youth, hopefully fulfill their footy dreams and, chase their goals of getting drafted. So I’m very thankful that it’s come full circle, but, absolutely stoked to be here to discuss some, some good topics with you fine gentlemen today and, and really get into the nuts and bolts of how we can collaborate with Sport4All as First Nations people and, and really, um, you know, help our communities. Mitch, talk to us a bit about Sport4All, what you guys do and sort of your role, in that.

04:21 – 05:48

[The camera changes angle and closes on Mitch sitting next to Ethan].

Mitch Gourley: I probably should have should say where it started, right. So, you know, our organization was founded by Dylan Alcott, you know, the, the tennis player,  former Basketballer, Australian of the Year, all all that fun stuff, that D (Dylan Alcott) did. And, and it kind of was started on the back of his experience in community sport with his brother, where, while his brother could play sport in their local community around the corner at, at the local club in whatever sport he wanted. When Dylan wanted to play tennis, the local club said, oh, we, we can’t welcome you here because we don’t, we didn’t have a wheelchair tennis program. And so he ended up driving like three hours round trip, to go to the, the nearest wheelchair tennis program at the time, right. And what, what the reflection for, for Dylan and his family was over time was, you know, what they learned later on when he was at school, he played tennis, you know, in the mainstream program with everyone else at school and they just tweaked the rules a little bit so the ball could bounce twice on his side and once on the other side. And like, it just showed that perfect example. And tennis is a great one for it, where you don’t necessarily need to like reinvent the wheel to include a person with disability. But yeah, the, the simplest, simplest way to describe it is that we, we try to help local clubs and schools include people with disability in all roles of sport, right? When, when, where, and how they choose.

05:49 – 06:13

[The camera cuts to Benjamin].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Yeah, it sounds like amazing work and, and super important, for, for so many, so many people with disabilities out there and you know, like you said, the cross section of, you know, First Nations or whatever it may be, um, being able to put support out there for them and, you know, be a, be a something for them to, to look up to, you know, for something that, you know, you or Johnny may not have experienced growing up. So it’s really cool work.

06:14 – 06:45

[The camera cuts to Mitch again].

Mitch Gourley: Yeah, exactly. And we are really lucky that we get to, we get to hire a team of people with disability to go out and do the work, which is really cool because that lived experience is so important and I think that’s where it’s really exciting to be here today and listen and learn from you guys around your lived experience as First Nations people in sport and what’s worked and maybe what, what’s been harder and, and how we can kind of learn from that and listen and connect more effectively, you know, with local communities, local First Nations people and organizations to understand how we kind of can do better.

06:46 – 10:25

[The camera cuts between Mitch and Benjamin as they chat].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Well, I guess we’ll just slide straight into our first question then gents today. So Mitch, we might start with you with this one. So as a person with a disability in sport, what challenges have you faced in your community and has that shaped your identity as a person?

Mitch Gourley: Yeah, I think, I was really, really lucky growing up. So I, I grew up with a brother that didn’t have a disability down in regional Victoria, down in Geelong, Wadawurrung country, which is a beautiful part of the world. I’m lucky to live in again now. And I guess like for me, the biggest challenge was probably other people’s perceptions more than anything. Right? So, growing up my, my mum was like super mad keen on sport and, you know, was always convinced that if we were running around chasing a ball, we couldn’t be getting into mischief and doing too much, too much wrong. So we would throw us, she threw us into every sport I played basketball, cricket, football, hockey, you know, everything. I ended up, started racing bikes, did a little athletics, did all, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, did a lot of different sports, but consistently the biggest challenge or the big, the clearest thing was actually other people’s perceptions around what I could or couldn’t do. And, and you know, one of the examples that really, came through for me was when I started racing bikes, I started doing track cycling, so, you know, on like the steep banking on the velodrome and it was actually other kid, like the biggest, biggest challenge or the biggest barrier was other kids’ parents being worried about me being on the track, potentially knocking them off. Yeah. You know, because you kind of going fast around the track and you, and I’d only have one hand, right? Yeah. So they’re worried about me able to steer the bike. So yeah, I think ultimately the biggest challenge was not necessarily what I could do or, or how we could adapt kind of the sport or, or the roles around the sport, whether it was coaching or helping out in the canteen or, or you know, helping out, just being involved in the, in the club or in the community. It was more people’s perceptions about what I could or couldn’t do or, or what would need to change. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, I guess talking about how that’s shaped your identity as a sports person, you, you’ve gotta have lots of, you know, perseverance and to that almost that attitude that I’m gonna prove you wrong, like to a lot of people. Like, do you think that that that mentality of wanting to prove people wrong is what shaped you as a sports person in your community? Yeah, it probably did and it probably, I now have to like try and reign that in a bit sometimes because like from an identity and like a belonging perspective, I think that was the best part for me was when I was competing in sport, whether that was like running around the playground at school at lunchtime or whether that was like on a bike in a bike race, my disability didn’t matter in that moment. Like when I was, when I was chasing a ball or I was, you know, doing anything, on the sporting field, that’s when it kinda, it didn’t matter. Yeah. Did a white line fever. Yeah, yeah. But it’s like, and that was the coolest part about, as I kind of grew up and got really involved in my clubs and the first sort of job I ever had was like helping out the canteen on a, on a Thursday night taking money and talking to other people’s parents and whatever else and, and helping out with the meals and you know, that’s when I really felt connected. Like, it, it didn’t matter. Yeah. Like I had to do things a little bit differently at times. And like with the, the bike club, I had funny handlebars and it looked a bit different and like my brakes were set up to all do it on one side or whatever, but like it didn’t matter in that point and I felt really part of the community.

10:26 – 14:55

[The camera cuts between Ethan and Benjamin as they chat].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: I guess Eth(Ethan) on the, Indigenous side of that, like similar to Mitch’s story, like having how the disability sort of shaped him as a sports person, like how was growing up, how have moments from your community level or community experience and being indigenous sort of shaped you as a sports person?

Ethan Penrith: Yeah, I think I was really, really lucky growing up. So I grew up with a brother that didn’t have a disability down in regional Victoria, down in Geelong, Wadawurrung country, which is a beautiful part of the world. I’m lucky to live in again now. And I guess like for me, the biggest challenge was probably other people’s perceptions more than anything. Right? So, growing up my mum was like super mad keen on sport and was always convinced that if we were running around chasing a ball, we couldn’t be getting into mischief and doing too much wrong. So she would throw us into every sport—I played basketball, cricket, football, hockey, you know, everything. I ended up starting racing bikes, did a little athletics, did all that kind of stuff. So, um, did a lot of different sports, but consistently the biggest challenge or the clearest thing was actually other people’s perceptions around what I could or couldn’t do.

And, you know, one of the examples that really came through for me was when I started racing bikes, I started doing track cycling, so, you know, on like the steep banking on the velodrome and it was actually other kids’ parents being worried about me being on the track, potentially knocking them off. Yeah. You know, because you kind of going fast around the track and you, and I’d only have one hand, right? Yeah. So they’re worried about me able to steer the bike. So yeah, I think ultimately the biggest challenge was not necessarily what I could do or how we could adapt kind of the sport or the roles around the sport, whether it was coaching or helping out in the canteen or, or you know, helping out, just being involved in the, in the club or in the community. It was more people’s perceptions about what I could or couldn’t do or what would need to change. Yeah.

Yeah. And like, I mean, I guess talking about how that’s shaped your identity as a sports person, you, you’ve gotta have lots of, you know, perseverance and to that almost that attitude that I’m gonna prove you wrong, like to a lot of people. Like, do you think that that mentality of wanting to prove people wrong is what shaped you as a sports person in your community?

Yeah, it probably did and it probably, I now have to like try and reign that in a bit sometimes because like from an identity and like a belonging perspective, I think that was the best part for me was when I was competing in sport, whether that was like running around the playground at school at lunchtime or whether that was like on a bike in a bike race, my disability didn’t matter in that moment. Like when I was, when I was chasing a ball or I was, you know, doing anything, on the sporting field, that’s when it kinda, it didn’t matter. Yeah. Did a white line fever. Yeah, Yeah. But it’s like, and that was the coolest part about, as I kind of grew up and got really involved in my clubs and the first sort of job I ever had was like helping out the canteen on a, on a Thursday night taking money and talking to other people’s parents and whatever else and, and helping out with the meals and you know, that’s when I really felt connected. Like, it, it, it didn’t matter. Yeah. Like I had to do things a little bit differently at times. And like with the, the bike club, I had funny handlebars and it looked a bit different and like my brakes were set up to all do it on one side or whatever, but like it didn’t matter in that point and I felt really part of the community.

Yeah, I guess similar to you, my mum was same, just chuck me any sport she could and just maybe, probably just get me out of her hair. But, Yeah, she was just, um, I was kind of lucky that my mum was, quite heavily involved. So she, same thing her, she was a kid, she just play leap sport. She grew in country town as well, so she just, anything they could sort of, um, hit a ball or chase or do anything, she’d do the same. So I think growing up as a kid, mum was, I was lucky enough for, for myself that mum was really involved and heavily involved. I sort of figured out early days, like after sort of growing up through the levels, you know, we kind of just played for local backfire club and then as you sort of progress through like the under eighteens and whatnot, the numbers of the, indigenous fellas start to drop away if they’re other, you know, off course a mischief or they’re just not interested anymore if they’re just doing other things. So I guess, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of difficult because you can kinda just grow up love in sports and then as you get older you’re like, oh yeah, there’s a bit more to it. And I think, yeah, I think for me, I, like I said, my mom was lucky enough that she would drive me to training, she’d make sure I was here at this time. But you know, if we had to raise money for whatever it was, she would do raffles at work and try and get people to chip in. And whereas some other black fellows that I grew up playing footy with, they didn’t have that, they didn’t have someone like that in their lives to help them either raise money or be able to have their even license to drive into trainings or pick ’em up from games and whatnot. So yeah, I guess it’s, it’s tough and everyone’s different, but mum for me, she sort of just pushed me through it and supported me. But I know some people’s aren’t, some fellas aren’t that, lucky to have someone who’s financially stable or, that dedicated to help push ’em through to, um, especially as they get older, you know, stuff’s not cheap, especially these days. So, yeah, I think I was just lucky that, um, I had someone in my corner who helped push me, but you can kind of see quickly drops away the older you get and um, the support systems aren’t necessarily there, not from just a club point of view, but sometimes at family levels with black fires, you know, it is like I out with a single mum so she had to do everything. She was my mum and my dad, so yeah. Right. Yeah. So it’s a bit challenging, but she made it work.

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Do you find that, so with that support and everything that you talked about, you know, and that love and care from your mom, do you find that that shaped you as a sports person? Like you were a teammate that wanted to care, like look after your teammates and be team first and all that stuff?

Ethan Penrith: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think my mom always taught, taught me as a kid just make it hard for the opposition. So whatever that was, I remember when we were playing basketball as a kid, she taught me how to take, take a charge and I was playing up in age group and some kid just ran straight through me and I started crying, but mom was sitting there laughing up for me. So I was proud about that. Was she practicing on you or you practic practicing after the Charges? I think maybe sometimes I was, you know, annoying her getting in her hair, so she’s like, na kidding. But, yeah, I think, yeah, it was, she definitely shaped the way who I am and, I think that’s translated into my sport like saying before it’s, you know, it’s just a game at the end of the day. But, I think, yeah, I, I am quite competitive like ‘white line fever’, so, yeah, it is, yeah, someone that support that helps me push me through and drives me and wants me to sort of do the best I can and, I dunno, I tried to do my best to be able to get drafted and that did not happen for me, but mum was like, oh, you know, you still, you tried. Yeah. You know, mom’s a lot. You tried Really? Yeah. So yeah, I was lucky to have that support system and, if it wasn’t mom, it was uncles and aunties or cousins or whoever it was driving me to here, there and pick me up and getting the old hand me down boots from cousins and what not. So yeah, I was lucky to have the support system that I did, but I know growing up even some of the, I played with some of the best, black fellas that I grew up playing with who I think could be on a, on a list and be doing something great, but they just didn’t have that support and they quickly fell away. So, yeah, it can go either way I guess. Yeah.

14:56 – 16:33:

[The camera cuts between Johnny and Benjamin as they chat].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: And Johnny, I guess over to you as well, you know, like with, with how these challenges shaped us as a sports person, what are the key things do you think the key challenges I guess you faced growing up that sort of shaped you as a person, as a sports person today?

Johnny Boland: For sure. Well, a lot of the stuff that Mitch said is really resonated for me. So growing up being vision impaired, my condition is degenerative, so it gets sort of worse over time. So I found growing up playing sort of mainstream sport footy and basketball I loved and I felt like really sort of frustrated because sort of the better I get, the more I trained the fitter I was as I aged, my vision got worse. And so sort of with the outside of my control, my ability sort of suffered as a result of that. So I found, you know, it was quite, you know, frustrating playing community sport as as I aged, but I think it did give me, as you said earlier, like a massive chip on my shoulder. I was so keen to, to prove myself and be like, oh, I, I can do it and, and whatnot and you know, obviously not at the highest level, but when it got to a time where I was legally blind and able to qualify to play vision impaired sport, like blind cricket, it definitely sort of translated that competitiveness and then that sense of community as well you get from from sport, you know, was, was so great for me growing up as well. So yeah, definitely some, some challenges early around, you know, coming to terms with vision loss and watching your mates who you thought you, you were better than go past you and stuff like that, that would definitely impacted me growing up. But yeah, I think having that disability sport or blind sport as I, as I aged really, really helped me mature as well and accept, you know, the hand that I was dealt, if you like.

16:34– 21:04

[The camera cuts between Ethan and Benjamin as they chat].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Yeah, that’s great. And I like the one, like the sort of the common thing or theme that I can sort of pick out from all of us is like that, like whether it’s some racism that you cop as an indigenous bloke or setbacks or things that don’t go your way or, you know, dealing with your situation, it’s like resilience. Like it’s the ability to pick yourself back up, keep going, and just sort of brush it off and say it is what it is and not have a mindset that’s looking in the past and just keep worrying about the future. I will throw this one out for anyone to answer. Who wants to jump in. As a First Nations person who has played sport all their life, have you felt the same level of achievement and recognition as a non First Nations person?

Ethan Penrith: Yeah, I guess, yes and no in a way, I know like as I was saying before, I had a single mom, so she kinda had to do everything for me. And you know, the saying often is, is it takes a community to raise a child. So I was lucky that I had those support systems, but sort of as I got older, especially going up through like the NAB league system or whatever it’s called now, the TAC Cup when I was playing. Yeah. So going up through those, I sort of quickly realized it was sort of a boys club and you know, you’re going through the list. Oh, his dad played AFL oh yeah, his dad played AFL so they kind of already had that sort of foot in the door, whereas I kind of had to work a little bit harder just to sort of get noticed I guess.

And, I, I tried to work my ass off to try and get there, but you kind of see you’re already sort of starting behind just because people have these connections already or they’ve already know someone who know someone who knows someone and yeah, I guess like I still tried to work and try to work as hard as the next bike next to me as you do being competitive and um, but yeah, I feel like it’s, yeah, somewhat, not always, but yeah, you’ve kind of working twice as hard as the next person. Yeah. I found, you know, growing up similar to you like in those teams and coming through those games or squads and camps and stuff, I feel like as an indigenous person, you know, I saw non-indigenous teammates sometimes make a couple of mistakes here or there’ll be late to a meeting or something and it wasn’t really mentioned or wasn’t brought up, um, as heavily as it was if it was an indigenous person doing it.

So there’s the stereotype of, you know, like lazy or you know, not organized and all those things. It’s sort of, it takes a lot less for a black fellow to sort of, to make one of those mistakes I think, when it’s labeled. Yeah. And I think as well, like as I was saying before, the higher up you go in those high performance teams or camps or whatever they are, there’s not as many black fellas coming through as well. So a lot of the times I was the only indigenous person there and sometimes I was the darkest person in the room, which I’m not that dark I don’t think.

But, yeah, like sometimes even just like racial slurs, like often like people just say ‘abbo’ instead of Aboriginal or whatever, and you know, having to pull people up on that and being like, Hey, like I don’t respect saying that. So just those little challenges that were, you wouldn’t get if you, you know, from, if there were obviously like I was there that you could, someone you could just hang off with and be two peas in a pod. But yeah, being, going through those programs you often, often was the only black fella in the team. And yeah, I guess it, it obviously hurt ’cause you can’t really, you don’t want to stand up or say anything because I’m the only token black fella here. Like, what if they just kick me out.

Mitch Gourley adds: It’s hard when you are different, right? Yeah. Like it’s like you already feel different in that scenario and then you also feel this kind of like sense of responsibility. I don’t know what Johnny thinks as well, but often being like the only person with a disability in the room, you feel like you gotta kind of put that on your shoulders and like stand up to expectations, but then it’s like you can’t, it’s tiring. Yeah. It is like every day to feel like, oh, I’m the only person at work today with a disability. I mean, it’s different for us. We’re really lucky, you know, we get to work with a heap of people in our team with disability, right? And it feels really cool to come into an office where like, to be honest, if you don’t have a disability, you’re the odd one now. Yeah, which is so different. Refreshing!

Johnny agrees and says, Refreshing! Absolutely refreshing, isn’t it? Yeah. You don’t have to carry that sort of, you know, I’ll talk you through what you need to do to be inclusive type of element so that it’s awesome.

21:05– 22:40

[The camera towards Benjamin and Johnny as they continue the conversation].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Yeah. There’s definitely, there’s, there’s an element of that in workspaces and that we call it cultural loading where it’s that expectation or like when I was in high school, like every single assembly they made me do the welcome to country and then I, I was, it took me years and years to build up enough courage to say, look, first of all it’s not a welcome to country ’cause I’m not from here. It’s an acknowledged with, and then also because it’s an acknowledgement anyone can do, it doesn’t have to be the only indigenous fellow. Like it can be the black, yeah, token black fella we call. But yeah, that cultural loading and I’m sure it’s so similar with you guys and that expectation of having to have all the answers and having to know everything and it’s like, you know, for me, I, my upbringing is I was disconnected from my culture, so I don’t have all the answers. I don’t, I’m still learning now I’m only like four or five years into learning about who I am. And so not having all those answers, but feeling like you should sometimes can be a lot of expectation and weigh you down a lot. Do you guys, do you and Mitchie and Johnny feel that way as well sometimes?

Johnny Boland: It’s, it’s really interesting how it translates across sort of the, the cultural space and the disability space as well. Yeah. I’ve certainly felt that at times that a lot of pressure to, to have the answers and to, to say the right thing and speak for a community that, that I, you know, I try to represent, but in terms of vision impairment, my condition is quite, quite unique and so what, what may be true for me may not be true for other people. And then it’s the, yeah, the challenge of saying the right thing at the right time. Yeah. Couldn’t agree more.

22:41– 27:28

[The camera zooms towards each speaker as they chat].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: What steps can be taken by organizations, communities, and individuals to create a more inclusive and supportive environment for First Nations athletes and athletes with a disability who would like to kick us off.

Ethan Penrith: We often have this conversation at work that a lot of the younger black fellas, a lot of ’em who are marking up, aren’t necessarily involved in sports. We always kind of say that, you know, sports teaches a lot of things, teach you how to win, teach you how to lose, how to be respectful. So we often kind of say like that’s if the, a lot of the times that the kids who are sort of, you know, marking up outside, get locked up or whatnot, they’re not necessarily involved within sports. So, you know, it’s not necessarily one person’s job to be like, Hey, you fellas go play this war club, or whatever it is. But it’s, yeah, I guess it takes a whole collective of saying, we’ve offering this program, we’ve got this, would you be interested? Or, offering support like through like our organization, we can sometimes, you know, chuck in fuel vouchers for parents who may be struggling or whatnot to get, to get their kids to and from trainings or games or whatever it is. But yeah, I guess it’s being able to realize what the gap is and then seeing how you can sort of help bridge that gap and however, it could be through support, through sponsoring uniforms or through sponsoring events as a whole or yeah, if you vouchers travel costs, accommodation to various events and what not.

Benjamin Nabea Davis: So, yeah. My experience, so before my role at the AFL, now, I was in the inclusion social policy team and we actually, part of our role, in developing the, or helping the peak rule, um, which was the rule against racism in the AFL, was dealing with vilification and discrimination in our game and one thing we actually did, which should be coming out soon, is we developed a, cultural awareness, module for, under 12’s. So for coaches to be able to understand their indigenous players better. And I think to your point, Mitch, when asking, you know, what could the, you know, the school have done better or, you know, what, what can clubs or organizations do better? To me it’s always just education. It’s just teaching people who don’t know how to go about things. Because a lot of the time, from what I found is that there are so many people that want to know the right way to go about, you know, helping indigenous people or helping people with disability, but they don’t know how to ask that first question and they dunno what questions to ask. So at, at times I can feel like we sit here and we go, you know, like it’s always us teaching, it’s always us educating, but we’re the ones who know indigenous people the best. We’re the ones who know disability the best. So we’re the ones who need to be giving them how they can learn, how they can teach each other and, and to go on from there. Do you agree with that Johnny? Like just Oh yeah. In regards to teaching, you know, people who wanna learn more about disability and, and reaching out to them?

Johnny replies: No, absolutely. I think in my experience with people like across my life, most people are, are kind and caring and, and want to help and yeah, it’s, it’s having that courage to ask that first question. And it may be uncomfortable and you may get it wrong, but as someone living with a disability, I so much more appreciate someone maybe having a crack to ask a question from a place of care and a place of wanting me to be included and, and feel secure and maybe, you know, slipping up because then I’ve got the opportunity to say firstly thank you and for including me. Yeah. But, you know, maybe next time it would be really helpful if you could word it this way or something like that. There’re yeah, the first step I think is, is curiosity. And I think most people are curious. And then, yeah, having the, the backend, that education piece or something that people can go and better their understanding beyond that first conversation is, yeah, so important.

Ethan continues the conversation and says: I think like a lot of the time people just are too ashamed to even ask the first question ’cause they think I might be offensive, I might say something I shouldn’t say. And then they’re like, oh, they just kind of hold to themselves as you said. Like if they ask you a question, you have the opportunity. If they do sleep up, like, Hey, maybe next time say this or say this, or, I don’t appreciate you saying this, I would it this way differently or whatever it is. But at least if they’re trying or attempting to make the first conversation or be inclusive, whatever it is, you can tell that they’re trying, but that also you have that chance to, oh yeah, thank you for asking that question, but maybe next time say it this way or whatever. It’s Yeah. Ask.

Benjamin Nabea Davis: And you were saying before e thought when we, we were chatting that, you know, everyone, someone knows someone who knows someone. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, like just reaching out to someone who, who has grown up with a dis or has a disability or an indigenous person, they would’ve built connections over the years and they would know someone who can point you in the right direction. So it’s just about asking the question on, you know, someone, you know, how can I, how can I get involved? How can I support?

27:29- 33:17

[The camera zooms out and shows all 4 people].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: So let’s, talk about the role of Sport4All and collaborative learning and, Mitch, if you wanna talk to us a bit about sport for all’s future plans and goals to engage with First Nations communities. Yeah. That’d be unreal.

Mitch Gourley: Awesome, mate. So I guess like the, the Sport4All program is very much built around that idea of, at the moment, like people with disability, generally speaking, if they show up to the local footy club, cricket club, basketball club, tennis club, what, whatever sport you know, you want, there’s no guarantee that they’re gonna have a good experience. And often people feel like they need to find a, like a disability specific, like unless they operate a insert disability program here kind of thing, that they don’t have anything for people with disability. And I guess the role of, of Sport4All and our program is to try and support all clubs to have that basic understanding of there’s lots they can do for the disability community without necessarily starting a wheelchair basketball program. You know, or an all abilities footy program. Yeah. Like you can ask questions, be curious, and, and, even if someone wants to be involved in a disability specific program, and you don’t have one, there’s still ways that could be part of part of the community in the, in like part of the club.

And so much of what, like what we do is about just kind of opening those possibilities and being like, well how do you, how do you kind of get past that, that fear to ask those questions with genuine care and curiosity? And, and once you start asking those questions, then you start to kind of look at solutions and go, oh, okay, well maybe you wanna be a volunteer with the club or you want to, like you are. We’ve had stories of people in community that are like studying to be accountants and they wanna get some, um, like they want to get some experience and then they ended up like joining their local club and getting involved in the committee and helping out the, and eventually it led to their first job. Yeah. Like, and it was like a real weird thing and, and the conversation that happened before that was that the committee prior to kind of learning about disability and understanding that opportunity previously would’ve probably said to this person with disability, oh, we don’t have anything for you. Like, we don’t, if, if they showed up and said, Hey, we wanna get involved.

So just kind of I and I, and I guess the, the plans for future is that, you know, the way we do that is we, we hire people like Johnny, um, to work with clubs and work with schools to kind of open their eyes and, and, um, that’s a bad, that’s a really bad idiom, isn’t it? Really bad. Talking to, talking to Johnny. We’ll cut that one. You’re right. Work with clubs and schools to um, you know, I guess just like move their perspective and like, move them to a place where they’re trying to focus on solutions instead of putting up those barriers and going, oh, we don’t, there’s nothing we can do. ‘Cause so often, like you guys said, in your experience, so often people are scared to do the wrong thing, so then they end up doing nothing or they Yeah.

And I guess our future plans, yeah, we are really lucky that we’ve got staff like Johnny. We’ve got, we’ve got people with disability in roles all across the country, and we’re growing, you know, pretty rapidly. And, and I guess the next thing we want to do is acknowledge that people with disability don’t all look like Johnny and I, people with disability exist in all communities. And that there’s probably intersection between some of those challenges and some of those barriers that you were talking about, for First Nations people to access sport, that there’s first Nations people with disability who are experiencing both of those things. So how do we, engage better with local community to like connect people with disability to sport and to community, whether that’s to actually like play sport and be physically active, or whether that’s just to like to volunteer, to coach, to spectate, like whatever that role looks like for them. Yeah. How do you connect people in and how do we, how do we make it everyone’s responsibility to be inclusive of all people as opposed to, oh no, well, we’ll just, you know, um, there’s a disability program in that in the town, an hour away go to that like, you know, or there’s a, there’s a club that, that has some First Nations people in it over there to go there.

Ethan adds: It’s like, that’s the black fella club. Yeah, Exactly. Like, How do we all get better at that? So One thing we’ve tried to do, not for the Sport4All, uh, program, but here at VAHS we run a family mixed netball carnival. So we fought mixed netball, it’s not as physical, so men and women could play against each other as well. But as part of our registrations, we make sure that there’s someone, a boy and a girl under the age of 18, between 13 and 17 and someone as well as over 35. So, which is a good thing because we’ve got like dads who would’ve never played a sport with their daughter. So it’s pretty cool in that sense. But, um, and we’ve got like nans who have played with their grannies, which is pretty cool. So, that event for us that’s growing and growing, we’re going into our fifth year and we’ve partnered up with Netball Victoria and they’ve, they, we’ve invited them along and they’re like, holy s**t, we didn’t realize how big this event is. And, so we, yeah, we’ve had, our last one just happened this year. We had 24 teams register. Wow! So we’re expecting upwards of 30. We’ve got the state hockey netball center booked in, so that’s gonna be a big event, on our calendar. And absolutely you guys are more than welcome to come and, if this one to a stall or be involved in any way you can. Yeah. We’d absolutely, absolutely love that. And, Netball Victoria are very keen to sort of help us push that and um, so yeah, that’s another avenue for you guys sort of come along if he’s, Yeah.

33:18- 36.33

[The camera cuts to show Benjamin and Johnny as they chat].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Johnny, I’m gonna put you on the spot here. Yeah, mate. Well what does it mean to you as, you know, sort of going back, I’m thinking about Mitch, how he was saying, you know, what, what you guys do for people with disability. What does it mean for you being someone who’s grown up with a disability, being able to be in a position to help someone like a young Johnny today, you know, find their place and, and feel supported and connected?

Johnny Boland: Yeah, great question. I think it’s, yeah, really powerful to understand that the role that I’m doing here and the work that I’m doing can make somebody else’s life that as they’re growing up a little bit easier and they may not have to go to three or four different clubs before they’re included, or they may not have to travel multiple hours to get to a sporting club to participate. I think the work that, not just me but everyone at Sport4All does, it just opens doors. I think that’s, yeah, something that I, I take a lot of pride in being a part of this organization because yeah, I like when I go home I want to, you know, be able to say like, I’ve made somebody’s life easier or I’ve made a difference, or the company that I work for holistically makes a difference. And I think that that Sport4All does that overall, which is, yeah, amazing.

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Nice. I like there’s just so many things that are sort of intersecting here, you know, like we’ve spoken about today with the Indigenous and the disability space, and I just feel like working together collaboratively in the future and leaning on each other for that shared experience is gonna be so important.

Mitch Gourley asks: I wanted to ask about something that was bouncing off my head a couple of times when you were talking before, but around like role models and the importance of role models. ‘Cause I think that, like, sort of what you talked about with Johnny just then, like, ’cause I know for me growing up, like I never saw people with disability. I was always the only kid with disability at the club. Right. It was never, well, and I probably wasn’t, that’s the other thing. Like so much of disability is invisible. I probably wasn’t the only person with disability at the club, but we just weren’t talking about it at the time. And I think, yeah, I reflect on it wasn’t until I saw like the Sydney Paralympics that I realized that there was this kind of place for me in sport and people that looked like me playing sport.

Ethan replies: Yeah, I guess it probably shouldn’t have experienced to you, but I remember when we had like the indigenous programs that was like the funnest time of life because people are black fellas and coach with black fellas by black fellows and it’s just still a high performance environment as such, but you’re with other like-minded individuals and, yeah, it was fun. But yeah, like I said, like as you were saying before, Johnny, like that’s as a young fella, that’s you getting coached by people similar to you and, kind see how that would translate to people with disability as well. So, yeah, it was definitely like that were some of the more probably memorable moments of my sort of junior career going out playing sports, you know, remember that camp and I met this person and then now we’re still friends these days and yeah, like as you were saying, like when I went through those programs, all the coaches, like, we never had this one will we your age. So funny how you say that now. And then as you guys coming up, you guys like, oh, well yeah, now we’ve got these programs coming up and this is what we’re doing and we’re doing this. And yeah, it’s obviously sort of changing that tide and, more stuff’s coming as we sort of speak and which is nice. It’s good.

36:34- 40:33

[The camera shows all 4 people].

Benjamin Nabea Davis: Are there any sort of goals or targets that Sport4All wants to reach? Or is it, it’s more just that mentality that, you know, everyone belongs, um, no matter what level?

Mitch Gourley: Well, I mean, so where we’re going is really important. So we’ve sort of got our target areas that locations and we’re, we’re trying to do that based on like First Nations communities and how we can connect better and, and kind of engage more First Nations people with disability in sport. But like, you know, we’ve got some big targets in terms of the number of staff we wanna hire over the next 4 years and number of people we wanna involve. But I think so much of it is, is listening and learning. Like, so much of what we need to do right now is like build connections in every area we are like, and whether that’s through the ACCHO or, or, you know, health services or whether there’s carnivals that are happening, you know, I think for our guys, the real goal is to establish and build those relationships with First Nations people and First Nations organizations so that we can listen because we, like, I can only understand my experience of disability and so often we say like, the first point for a club is to ask the person what they wanna do. Right? When they show up and say, oh, we don’t have anything for you ’cause we don’t have any disability programs. It’s like, well what do they actually want outta this? How do they want to connect? And I think for us the first step is, is listening and, and learning and building those relationships. So that’s our biggest goal is, is building connections.

Benjamin says: Well, I mean, thank you for joining us today. Everyone likes been unreal hearing your stories and you know, chatting all things disability and First Nations and how we can collaborate and move forwards, together in the community and, you know, really educate ourselves in that space.

Ethan replies: Yeah, I think the, one of the key takeaways for me, I guess as we’re trying to kind of do the exact same thing, trying to make an inclusive environment for everyone, for all, regardless, you know, what shape and form you look like or where you come from, we’re trying to make, every inclusive environment. Like, you meet so many people playing sports over the years and you know, you create lifelong friendships and if you win flags, I’m never won flags, but I’m sure that’s what happens when you do. But, yeah, like sport’s such a, it’s such a unique beast in its own that everyone, everyone loves the sport. You know, you got die hard fans who have no interactions with, you know, if their team loses, it changes their whole mood. And, I think, yeah, I think like you said, everyone’s trying to do the exact same thing here and we’re all trying to make inclusive environments and sport’s perfect avenue to do that.

Benjamin adds: Like I’ve always said that I’ve found that sport to me it’s like a, it’s a conductor for conversation around bigger issues. Like it’s, it’s that common ground that people can come to. It doesn’t matter what background you’re from or you know, what, what you’ve experienced growing up, it’s something that everyone can do together and can start those conversations and, you know, so for me, when I’ve spoken about, you know, Sir Nichols around, for example, before, it’s, it’s, it’s a conductor for conversations around First Nations people in our game and it’s, it’s a, it shines a light on indigenous people and what they’ve done for our game and how we can improve again. So, oh yeah, I’m a big believer in that, what you mentioned there about its sort of sport being for all. Um huh! Good little plug there! Hahaha

Benjamin asks Johnny: Johnny, did you have any, anything that stuck out for you today that you wanna mention?

Johnny replies: I think just the intersection of the experiences across people from First Nations backgrounds and people living with disabilities, you know, are somewhat similar. And I think just for people listening or watching, it’s just have the courage to ask the question and, and do your best to be curious. That was what stuck out, like stood out for me and across my experiences, people being curious has been the most sort of advantageous, most helpful for me on my journey. And I’m sure that’s probably consistent across all of us. So yeah, I guess have the courage to ask the question and yeah, that’ll be amazing. Yep.

40:34 – 42:13

[The camera shows all 4 people].

Benjamin asks Mitch a question, “Mitch, do you have anything you want to add?

Mitch replies: I mean, that willingness to ask questions and be curious was obviously really, really loud and clear. And I think, like the, that shared experience around maybe feeling different or feeling like they aren’t role models for you, I think, you know, that was something that kind of came out. But then the impact of having role models, I think having people to look up to and, and people to share with and, and build relationships was really, really cool to, to hear how that impacted each of us. But, yeah, I think, I think it’s a, there there’s a real kind of space here to, to educate and, and help people, the broader community understand what their role is and how they can help. And, and there’s something as simple as asking the question to start with.

Benjamin adds: Yeah, a 100% that education piece. And then I think as well, there’s, especially today, there’s a real appetite for people to learn that people want to know more. You know, it might’ve been different couple years ago, but today it’s now more than ever people are wanting to know and wanting to help and support, you know, minorities or, you know, people who are First Nations disability, whatever it is. So it’s, it’s really great that we can collaborate, you know, work in that space for those people in those situations. But I mean, it’s been unreal today. If anyone is keen on signing up to Sport4All you can head to Sport4All.com.au, that’s with a 4, not the letters four, Sport4All.com.au, and can sign up there and find all the information about the wonderful work that Mitch and Johnny are doing. Cheers.

42:14 – 42:18

[The screen transitions and orange text against a black background reads, “Make a difference in your community. Head over to our website and join Sport4All today! WWW.SPORT4ALL.COM.AU].

42:19-42.23

[The screen transitions and orange text against a black background reads, “Any sport, anywhere for anyone. You can find it here: Sport4All logo is shown followed by the QR code]

Video ends.